Ashamed to be Australian

[dirtgirl]

I just can't believe what i'm hearing is going on in the concentration camps dotted around the outback at the moment.  What does the government expect? If you house people like animals and strip them of all human dignity - you can only expect people to go crazy and do mad things such as sew their kids lips together... What happened to the fair and egalitarian society Australia deluded itself to be?  Fair dinkum, it's enough to make you be ashamed to be australian

[Friendly]

We still must remember that what we are being told is coming from the media who never let the truth get in the way of a good story..... The refugees are probably living in better conditions then they were where they came from. They did jump the que and probably did because they were living in poverty and obviously couldn't afford to immigrate legally, but they should not be allowed to walk straight into society and receive benefits without serious background checks being made which takes time. I'm not saying that keeping them locked up is the correct thing to do, but their backgrounds must be checked, they have to prove that they will get work instead of receiving benifits, etc. Also its only one small group at one detention centre. The media love to get on these bandwagons....

[Reggie]

I’m not going to take up sides in this argument, but what we must remember is that these immigrants were living in sickening poverty before they set off the high seas to Australia. I’m not condoning the Australian Governments actions but by giving these people a chance of at least of gaining permanent residency instead of shipping them back to their former countries, where again, they would return to the poverty, and probable death, which they tried so vainly to escape. These people are being fed and they have shelter, they are not being treated like dogs as some media sources have made them out to be. But these immigrants have to remember, obviously, self-mutilation and arson are not going to quicken the validation of their VISA applications. You are not going to get residency through sympathy. If anything these acts of violent protest are slowing the process, and quite possibly reducing their chances of asylum. Two years is a long time to be locked in a government facility, and the fact that the Australian Government seems to have procrastinated on this issue does make me question their intentions, but remember, these people did “jump the que” and enter our country illegally and therefore must pay the consequences.

[Dazza]

So where does the que start to get into this county?? I dont buy the whole que jumper arguement

I think the idea for the self mutilation is coming from people outside of the detention centre.....the people in the detention centres are desperate and are willing to go along with anything to gain access into Australia. It has drawn worldwide attention to the issue.....but I cant see the problem...they have food they have shelter.....the only problems are the riots and self mutilation.....cause by none other than the detainees themselves.

I cant see how else the issue can be handled......If they are not detained what is the chances of them being deported if there VISA's are denied. Then the problem is that the people who are not granted VISA's and not deported become inelligable(spelling?) for welfare, and are unemployable......These are the sorts of people who are exploited in sweatshops and the like or turn to crime.

[dirtgirl]

Excellent viewpoints expressed by all - seems little Johnny Howard might have had his pulse on the spirit of the nation after all...  

On a basic level I agree with friendly and reggie - what rights do these que jumpers have: don't we have to protect the greater good of the lucky 20mil whom claim to be ozzies?

But what about basic human rights, geneva conventions, our own humanity, as so called Australians?  Wasn't this nation built from the spirit of generosity to refugees (think dagos post WII to those damn vietnamese boaties - lets be honest who doesn't love spaghetti and tom yum soup!).

If we were in these unfortunate souls' places would we not want to do the same thing?  I'm scared by the lack of transparency about it all - You talk about media propaganda(packer v murdoch) but what about the government?  Who is giving the honest account here? Who knows?  Isn't this a threat to our basic democracy?

And what about the UN or amenisity international?  Their silence is deafening...

I'll leave this rant with this last passing thought from Thomas Keneally; "...the dream of commonwealth, in which everybody should have a place of dignity at the table of our community."

[scheibes]

it all seems to have gone wrong
after all this was how little johnnie won the election because of the asylum seekers
so he had to take the hard stance
but from what we have been hearing it all seems a big mess
i'm really sick of it now , something seems to happen everyday , maybe it's always been like this it's just now that the media has latched onto it
i don't know what they are going to do , on one hand i don't believe they should even be allowed to set foot in this country, but what would i do if i was in their shoes ?
i personally don't think i would travel 1000 of miles to a country way over here , i would find the 1st  port of refuge

anyway that's my thoughts
Nathan

[Orange_Sherbert]

Someone will probably jump down my throat for this, but I think that any que-jumpers should be sent straight back and made to wait until they are approved to come in legally. Give them medical treatment if they need it-but then send them back to wait.
I admit that it sounds heartless, but people come over here illegally, and are therefore put through in front of people who are still overseas waiting until they can come into the country legally-how does that make any sense? Yes-the conditions they are fleeing from are horriffic-and I might be doing the same thing if I was in their shoes, but why should they be considered first, while others under the same circumstances are waiting? And while the illegal immigrants are over here waiting until their visas are validated, it's holding the process up, so people who are still overseas are forced to wait even longer than what they already are, when their the ones doing it by the book. I just don't understand it.

As for the detention centres-if they are really as bad as the media is suggesting, then that is plain wrong, and the government should do something to improve the conditions. (I guess there must be some truth to it-or people wouldn't be sewing their lips together with their shoelaces ) But their protests aren't going to get their visas validated any faster, and I'm sure the government would be trying to get through them as quickly as possible.
Overall, I don't think the government is doing too bad a job. We are allowing people in, but we are also looking out for the countires best interests by trying to be careful about who we are letting in. It may not be the best or fastest way-but really, how else can it be done?
And that, my friends, is my 2 cents.

[somethingforkaty]

i totally agree with orange_sherbet

It does not make any sense to allow them to push infront of people waiting in other countries who HAVE done the right thing. Some may be trying to escape bad conditions, but i doubt they all are. They cant expect to come over here and DEMAND that they have certain things. It cant work that way.

If they were to get their way, imagine the floods of people that would come following suit?

I dont think either, that they should be caged like animals. The resources spent on maintaining that facility, on police resources every time their is a riot etc could be spent on sending them back to their country to wait like everyone else.

[larry emdur is my hero!]

okay so my sister's into this big time, thus i hear about this 24 hours a day...allow me to rant a little here, just a few points i've learnt whilst reading up a bit on the issue:

• In Iraq and Afghanistan, there are no queues for people to jump. Australia has no diplomatic representation in these countries and supports the International coalition of nations who continue to oppose these regimes and support sanctions against them. Therefore, there is no standard refugee process where people wait in line to have their applications considered.
• Few countries between the Middle East and Australia are signatories to the 1951 Refugee Convention, and as such asylum seekers are forced to continue to travel to another country to find protection.
• the myths of 'swarms' and an 'invasion' of 'hordes', and quotes from Philip Ruddock of 'queue jumping' are just that, myths. The term "illegal immigrants" when applied to these asylum seekers is a falsity.  People who arrive on our shores without prior authorisation from Australia, with no documents, or false documents are not illegal. They are asylum seekers - a legal status under International Law. Many Asylum Seekers are forced to leave their countries in haste and are unable to access appropriate documentation. In many cases oppressive authorities actively prevent normal migration processes from occurring. 'Illegals' are people who overstay their visas. The vast majority of these in Australia are from western countries, including 5,000 British tourists.
  
• Sweden receives similar numbers of asylum seekers as Australia, despite having less than half the population. Detention is only used to establish a persons identity and to conduct criminal screening. Most detainees are released within a very short time, particularly if they have relatives or friends living in Sweden. Of the 17,000 asylum seekers currently in Sweden 10,000 reside outside the detention centres. Children are only detained for the minimum possible time (a maximum of 6 days).
  

[Orange_Sherbert]

somethingforkaty said:

i totally agree with orange_sherbet

What? I said something to do with politics and I'm not being shot down? Whats going on?

[hugo_b]

well i just have to pass on something a guy i know told me. he was a 'boat person', a refugee, who came over from vietnam just after the war, to escape communism. he has an amazing story, but said that these people coming in today disgust him. he was a real refugee, coming from poverty and escaping war and dictatorship, they were poor, etc. but the big thing was that they waited to be accepted. they didnt demand it. or threaten our country to try and get it. he watched his brother die on the way out, he watched his best friend be raped 17 times on the way out, he knew a girl who died of suffocation about a metre from him in the hold of the boat. waited for months in the camp in australia. ate what he was given, did what he was told and why? because as he puts it 'when you go to someone's house, you are a guest there - you follow their rules, and not try and impose your own'

this is a guy who went through a lot of shit and is just grateful to be here (thats the tip of the iceberg the whole story is huge)

but his views on this - they are NOT poverty stricken. for the most part its true that these people are paying people smugglers the equivalent of tens of thousands of aussie dollars to be smuggled into the country. they may be doing it out of desperation but they are by no means in a bad way financially in the countries they come from. they are impatient. you dont come to a country and DEMAND that they let you in. using a basic analogy - if you were the headmaster of a school, and you saw a rich shit little kid push in front of other kids and start demanding stuff from you, would you agree to their demands? i dont think so.

so, someone who has been there and done that and done the right thing thinks that all of this is bullshit. these people are just not proving that they are willing and deserving of accomodation here. you dont go to peoples houses and start burning shit down and threatening suicide to try and make them let you come in.

so... i'm gonna be a bastard and say fawk 'em. say what you will but i'm sure there are more deserving - and better behaved + more respectful/grateful - people that would be assets to our country, rather than liabilities.

they gotta stop pulling the insano if they want to make me feel sorry for them.

cheers,

me

[dirtgirl]

I'm really impressed by the level of thought and opinion people are offering to this post. The great thing about it is the variety of views being expressed here - are you taking note Orange_Sherbert?

Personally I totally agree with eddie_vedder (wish I could have put forward the argument against as elegantly as you   ).

I think the way these people are being treated is a reflection of the status of australiana today and as a citizen who loves this nation to death I am deeply concerned and worried.  

Are we living in a corporatist, police state?  Why is it that agents acting for the commenwealth arrested an abc journalist over the weekend for simply doing her job and reporting the facts of the matter? (in this country the abc and sbs are as about as close to the truth as you'll ever get).

I don't agree with catholic archbishops very often, but I throught archbishiop pell's comments about the state of the refugees (re: 7:30 report, abc, 29/1/02) reflected a deep appreciation for australia's humanist's traditions and history.  He talked about the scars (not to mention the immense costs {in immediate $ as well as unknown future obligations to obscure pacific nations} that this stupid, inhumane, stubborn policy of the howard government is inflicting not only on the reputation worldwide of this current generation of auzzies but also for the enduring psychosis which be the legacy and burden for future generations (do we learn nothing? First the stolen generation now this...).

What's that Pauline?  Something about the White Australia Policy?...

[Rendered Pointless]

Don't let's start on Pauline Hanson... she was as much a creation of an unsympathetic media as anything else. While I strongly disagree with most of her views, she was NOT a supporter of a White Australia policy. She believed, among other things (2% flat tax... God that was funny  ;D ) that immigrants should have to pass compulsory English exams, written and spoken, before entering the country. Hell, if you emigrate to, say, the great human rights supporter that is Germany, you aren't even allowed to get a job until all the Germans qualified for that job have one!

Nor should we start on the "stolen generation"... that is an entire different kettle of fish, and at the time the policy was implemented, those ignorant Governments dicks thought it was the best thing for those kids. Yes they were wrong, yes it was horrible, yes we're all very sorry. It is NOT comparable to the current situation.

Anywho, eddie is right. There are no "queues". It's like calling Beazley the "flip-flop" leader or whatever he was; they're called "Election Year Buzzwords". However, on the Sweden point, they have a much smaller land area, a much more friendly and stable set of neighbouring countries (in the diplomatic sense - no offence to any Indonesians or New Zealanders!), and a lot more recourse if one of those refugees, say, is a plant by, say, a militant religious group hellbent on destroying the western world and all it's subsidiaries.

There is no operable solution to this problem, particularly for Howard and co., who are very painfully being crushed between a rock and a hard place. The only way to fix the problem is to fix the Visa system, and we ain't talking the credit company.

The whole system is screwed; what is the go with the ironically named Temporary Protection Visa??? This lets a refugee stay in Australia for x amount of time. They are then deported unless they get a permanent visa. Once deported, they cannot return to the country. If they leave the country at any stage of the duration of the TPV, they are not allowed to return. They have no resident rights on a TPV. Yet the Government thinks this is a workable solution!!! Wake up Ruddock!!!

That's my two bits, anyway. Just a small addendum, you have to feel sorry for Ruddock; he was Minister for Aboriginal Rights during the stolen generation gig, and now he gets given Immigration/Multiculturalism during the Afghanistan unsettlement... you got shafted mate! I think there was another one, he was acting defence minister during the big thing over the Collins Class subs as well... I'd be asking some questions of Howard, Phil old mate.

[Rendered Pointless]

BTW... these people may not be poor. But money is pretty damn irrelevant when you are coming from a society that destroys personal freedom in the way that Islam Fundamentalism does. Islam is a great religion, until idiot fanatics like the Taliban move in and start screwing people over. You've all seen the pictures of women in the robes and veils - in 40 degree heat (celsius). The men have the power but they are restricted too - like, if a male is caught talking to his female cousin, and the husband sees them and happens to be in a militant mood, he can kill them and get away with it! Money can't buy everything.

[Friendly]

Some very good and different points so far. But the basic fact is you just can't walk into any country and expect to walk straight into society. You should expect to be held in a centre while your visa is processed. I believe the children should have special carers within a few days, so they can still have some sort of life that a child deserves while they're visa's are being processed, since it probably wasn't their choice to be taken here. But these people are coming from countries where women are sentenced to death for talking to their male cousins, yet they complain about being held in conditions where accomodation and food are garenteed. I believe this whole thing was sparked by one group of asylum seekers who got a bit impatient. The media have jumped on this bandwagon and informed all the other detention centre's who have followed suit. They all claim to stop eating and kill themselves, if they really wanted to die surely a knife across the wrists is better then a bit of detergent. The asylum seekers know they are being watched by the country, maybe the world and are saying they're gonna do all these things just for attention led on by those scum we call 'lawyers', who claim to be helping these refugees but are just doing it to look like they are honest and get free advertisment. It will all blow over when the media get bored. The conditions have been like this for the last whatever years but no-one really complained. See what one small group and a media blow out can do.

Another point, imagine the conditions i would be put in if i decided to leave australia to one of these other countries as a refugee.