Britney Spears

[Glen]

She's pretty, aye, but not *that* pretty...though she looked hot at the Grammys.  Rawr.

[Captain BJ]

I know you mentioned it was off the topic, but you still brought it up, I get the implication. Unnecessary.

First, I would define her as big. She is the face of pop music at the moment. Why else would this topic be about her and not about Christina Aguliera, or N Sync or Robbie Williams? They aren't as big as Britney is. She hasn't yet got the longevity of the Stones or U2, but keep in mind she is only 19. Give her a chance.

I would have to ask what message you're even referring to. She's using her strong points (singing, dancing, looks) to her advantage. Jay Leno's strong point is his humour and charisma. The USA's strong point (for the purposes of the "war on terrorism") is their military power. Michael Jordan uses athletic ability.

And what about all the positive messages she is sending? Cynics don't believe her and critics mock her, but she is still stating that she wants to wait until she is married to lose her virginity. She's never been caught with drugs. She doesn't smoke (unlike Steph, who while a great musician, is no Ms Perfect).

To take your point on the modern woman, let's also consider Anna Kournikova. I have no doubt that you also detest her, despite all the attention she brings to women's tennis and women's sport in general. Many more people watch women's tennis now then they did in the Evert-Navratilova era, and while they might ogle over the Kournikova match, they now care about the result of the Williams-Capriati match as well. And yes, Anna can play. You don't get to #8 in the world without skill. Marion Jones won her gold medals with more than her looks too.

Clearing up some facts: Britney is a singer. Singing is music. Therefore she is a musician. And she has written some of her own music.

But that's not the point anyway. Who cares if she writes her own songs or not? Where's the law that says you have to be able to write and sing to have respect? There are songwriters that can't sing. Do you treat them with the same contempt?

Incidentally, I don't see the big problem with wanting to be famous and wanting to be heard on the radio and sell records and such. Maybe some people view the music industry as more of a business than an art. It's the same with everything in the world, and they're just doing what they can to get a break. If people are writing pop songs, and people want to hear them, then they are both satisfied. What's the big problem?

[luceluna]

katy asked: "Back to Britney... shes just doing what she loves? What is that exactly.... cause shes not a musician, she doesnt write the music, or most likely the lyrics either....."

well, she HAS written two books (albiet cowritten with her mother): one's an autobiography, and one's a "fictional" account of a young girl's rise to pop stardom. i shit you not.

[Jess]

somethingforkaty said:

It also doesnt help the continual [no im not a hairy feminist] plight of the modern woman which is set back by people like her. Girls need role models like Steph........
Young girls should want to be intelligent, informed and respected like Steph, and realise they dont have to prance around like a bimbo sprouting "dont ask me im just a girl" in a push up bra.

Ok, I'm most likely going to get my arse kicked for this but meh, such is life. Personally I don't think that Steph is any better / worse a role model for girls than Britney. I mean, she's a fucking awesome musician and I have a huge amount of respect for her, but she's not perfect, as Captain BJ said. I mean, she smokes, and since she's been in the public spotlight she's lost quite a bit of weight, whether it be from smoking, stress, whatever, I'm not going to make uninformed guesses. The thing I do like about Britney is although she's thin, she's not a twig like Christina and a lot of other popstars of today. Plus, Steph can be a bitch sometimes, 2 of my friends were huge fans and when they finally met her they were totally shunted. But everyone has their bad days I guess.

What's my point? I've forgotten. I guess just that both Britney and Steph both have good and not so good aspects to them, and it's unfair to make judgements on them as people just by what kind of music they make. My 2 (rambling) cents anyway.

[dirtgirl]

"just a barbie girl, living in her barbie world..."

Sad Britney 'insert corporate sponsor here' Spears is the 'face' of feminism today.  You go girl? - I don't fucking think so!!!!! All i'm seeing here is a bunch of middle aged hard-oned men getting rich over 'their' little musical treasure, and loving it.  And what's the deal with all those sluts in r & b videos these days?  What message does this send to all the little boys out there? And is Steph also a victim or equal agent provocateur?  Has she plucked her eyebrows, lost weight to meet societal expectations or just that of the bf?  

Gee, both women make me feel so empowered (NOT!). What the fuck's happened here ladies?    Female emancipation is dead apparently.  Seems the bra burning was for nothing    

And as for musicians selling out, paul can be a such a complete hypocrite sometimes... (just ask him about how he enjoys his status as Sony employee...   )

[Glen]

The face of feminism?  Bullshit!  She's a dancer who happens to be quite popular and successful...if you complain about her being anything more than that, then you're putting her on a pedestal somewhat removed from what she wants to do.

Really, sometimes you just hafta turn your ear away...or embrace a song for what it is, not what you want it to be.

And Brian Wilson employed a lyricist, so take that for what it's worth

[somethingforkaty]

whoah... ive only been gone for 2 days and look what i missed

you have all made fair points... i guess my only beef is that i feel people like britney make it hard for female musos to get respected. i have what i like to call the curse of being blonde, im thin and boys seem to think im attractive - for this reason when i play guitar most guys [not all] dont seem to give a hoot that i can actually play, they seem more interested in staring @ my breasts and hollering for me to show them. my point i guess is, just because im a woman i feel my weight/look/sex appeal always comes into play, and i dont think it should be an issue at all. im a musician and i deserve to be respected for my merits, not my cup size. i wonder how i would be treated on stage if i were fat? an even better question.... how would BRITNEY be treated if she were fat...? you say how talented she is yadda yadda but i dont think that you, or anyone else would give a shit about her is she was ugly. she certainly wouldnt be where she is, and whether or not you say you would still like her music, i doubt you wouldve given her a chance in the first place. lol... if you believe that shes a virgin you'd believe anything

someone said something about anna kornikova... which was pretty silly - it seems your trying to suggest im attacking any attractive female who has achieved something? i dont follow tennis so i have no idea whether she can play or not, but i do remember a story on a sports show which was bagging her saying that she cant play, and that she is only where she is because shes a pin-up girl [ remember, these arent my words ]. regardless of the fact i know nothing about her, i thought this was rather slack of them to attack her like this, since she can obviously play [if shes no.8 like you said she was]... and was pretty hypocritical coming from men who [im sorry] wouldve put her into pin-up status in the first place!

i want to be remembered for my achievements [if i ever achieve something   lol ], not what i look like/how many guys want to fuck me......

[ insert lots more heated debate from others ]

[dirtgirl]

Fact: Anna Kournikova has never won a grand slam event

Fact: Men like staring at women's breasts period.

Fact: Brian Wilson is mentally ill (bipolar) and needs help

Fact: Glenny is right, Britney is just a dancing muppet

Fact: Both Glenny and the Captain have a crush on the muppet  

Fact: Sex sells (sad but true katy   ).
Take your cues from Stephanie, look at what she has had to do for success  

Fact: not enough naked men on TV  

Fact: i'm not blonde... or is that a theory?  

Theory: betcha gigolo luna boy hasn't read 'no logo'  

Theory: If Brits is still a virgin, then i'm a fairy...

[somethingforkaty]

"dancing muppet"  ;D  ;D  ;D

lisa: whats a muppet?
homer: well, its not quite a puppet, and its not quite a mop...

"Fact: not enough naked men on TV"
i totally agree with that  

[Jess]

>>i wonder how i would be treated on stage if i were fat? an even better question.... how would BRITNEY be treated if she were fat...? you say how talented she is yadda yadda but i dont think that you, or anyone else would give a shit about her is she was ugly. she certainly wouldnt be where she is, and whether or not you say you would still like her music, i doubt you wouldve given her a chance in the first place.<<

That's not true, people who aren't the stereotypically attractive ones you'd usually expect to be sucessful still can be. I mean look at Katie from george, she's on the big side but has an amazing talent, and people can appreciate that despite the fact that she may not be a size 12.

I suppose that's different to being a mainstream, commercial artist but you know what I'm getting at.

[singingcirclesaway]

*heads to the corner, again, to sit this one out*

[Captain BJ]

Wow a lot of people to reply to here.

First of all to Katy: I'm impressed that you have been able to come up with arguments other than "she just dances around like a little slut". Shows you have more intelligence than the average Britney critic. Not that that's hard

I brought up the Anna Kournikova point in response to your plight of the modern woman. It was made to mention that while some attractive women are seen to be holding their gender back, they might in fact be helping the cause in ways not always apparent at first glance. Although, I will admit that I did make a judgmental implication that you don't like pretty successful women. I just know too many people that think that way, and I was lashing out at the tall poppy syndrome, and I didn't mean to bring you into that. So for that I'm sorry. (And she was #8 before she got injured. She hardy played last year and dropped to #73)

No, Britney would not be as successful if she were fat. Neither would the Backstreet Boys or Robbie Williams though. The cream of the talent will rise despite having less sex appeal (Katie from George and Alex Lloyd are two of the best examples I can think of). Still, people like to look at pretty things, and it's fairly similar with both sexes (I have a sister who looks at Tommy Haas in a similar way I do to Anna K - and we have about the same hope of our dreams coming true as well! ;D) It's just that guys have the yobbo mentality more than girls do, so you're more likely to hear "show us your tits Steph" than "show us your dick Paul". Unless Heartspark is present. Hehe sorry sometimes I can't resist a little dig at her!

I think it's irrelevant whether Britney is a virgin or not. She's probably not, most want to believe that she is. Whatever. She still promotes waiting. Whether she practices what she preaches is really her own business. But Justin would be pretty toey if she is. (On a side note, is Justin Timberlake not the biggest male bimbo you've ever seen? He was the celebrity player for one of the teams in the NBA All-Star 3-on-3, and the brief post-game interview with him was so painful it was funny. What the hell does Britney see in him?)

To dirtgirl:
In addition to Glenny's arguments, I'd like to add some.

Anna has won grand slams. Just not in singles. Doubles is hard, especially coming up against specialist doubles players like Rennae Stubbs and Lisa Raymond when you also have to contend with the singles players every other day. You have to remember also that it is a bloody good effort to win a grand slam. Rafter did it twice. Philippousis never has. It takes a freak to win 12 like Sampras.

But in fact she hasn't even won a singles tournament, grand slam or otherwise. But again, many don't. Mark Woodforde (trying to use Aussies as examples) never did. And Anna is only 19. She has at least 10 years of tennis left in her. The other thing to keep in mind is that she doesn't often go out in the first round. She mightn't win, but she's almost always in the R16 or quarter finals of most grand slams. She just doesn't have the strong serve that a lot of the top women have these days.

I am also disappointed in the same way that I am pleased with Katy. You've given simple arguments against Britney (and Anna) that lack fact, reliability and credibity. Britney is a dancing muppet? Yeah, good one. And I'm only partially offended by your next comment. Yes, I do have a bit of a thing for her in the same way that many have their celeb dreams (need I refer you to your constant comments about "overworking Paul's plumbing"?). But to imply that that is the only reason that I am arguing for her is narrow-minded and judgmental.

You might also want to stop seeing yourself and women as the victims. Britney, Steph and everyone else are excercising free will (which is the basics of what the bra burning was for) and they are making their way the best way they can. See my above points about Anna bringing attention to the Capriati-Williams matches etc... Britney is actually using her sex appeal to her advantage and she's getting attention and that is spread to similar artists like Mandy Moore and Jessica Simpson who mightn't have gotten a break without Britney, or Madonna before them.

If you choose to feel unempowered, then that's your choice. Only if you accept that you can't do anything about the things you don't like. And if you choose to believe that pretty women are bad for society.

To Jess:
Excellent points, all of them.

Anyway my posts are getting increasingly long. Better start reading the rest of the board

[Captain BJ]

And what the hell is it with No Logo? So what if Luceluna, Britney or myself haven't read it... Doesn't mean we have no intelligence, or right to an opinion. It's not likely it will change my life or even change my mind. I might read it and think it's crap.

[singingcirclesaway]

id ask to see pauls chest first, actually. penis doesnt mean anything to me (well, okay, i lie). ;D

[somethingforkaty]

"Although, I will admit that I did make a judgmental implication that you don't like pretty successful women. I just know too many people that think that way, and I was lashing out at the tall poppy syndrome, and I didn't mean to bring you into that. So for that I'm sorry."

thats quite alright, i forgive you  

"It's just that guys have the yobbo mentality more than girls do, so you're more likely to hear "show us your tits Steph" than "show us your dick Paul". Unless Heartspark is present. Hehe sorry sometimes I can't resist a little dig at her!"

A very valid point. lol @ Heartspark...

"And Anna is only 19" really? wow i take my hat off to that. id love to be 19 and be that successful in my sport/profession/something  ;D